EleTD on silverlight

[Cisz]

Silverlight is no new market. So please.

And what do we do if not? If noone cares for a great game on an unpopular platform? Or if I am right and people won't play it when it's on a ms system? Are you willing to switch plattform? Or do we call it a day and part ways and someone else does it on flash then? And how do we find out? What if after 3 years we have 30000 registered users? Would you accept if we say "thats not enough for us, sorry"? Or are we going to fight then, over "what about all the work we put into this" (and both sides will say that ofc) and "it's your fault, because you didn't advertise/code/design/test/ballance/paint/fry it properly". Do you have a solid exit strategy? Do we have one?

(...)

What are the plans? I want plans.

Thats the bit that I am worried about. Please adress it.

If you do a port and we end up unhappy, for reasons beyond your controll, like us beeing bitchy because we think that silverlight fails, what do you do?

Are you willing to risk your work on our one sided not-agreed upon judgement that you think is wrong?

And if not, what is your plan?

[Guest xen]

Silverlight is no new market. So please.

And what do we do if not? If noone cares for a great game on an unpopular platform? Or if I am right and people won't play it when it's on a ms system? Are you willing to switch plattform? Or do we call it a day and part ways and someone else does it on flash then? And how do we find out? What if after 3 years we have 30000 registered users? Would you accept if we say "thats not enough for us, sorry"? Or are we going to fight then, over "what about all the work we put into this" (and both sides will say that ofc) and "it's your fault, because you didn't advertise/code/design/test/ballance/paint/fry it properly". Do you have a solid exit strategy? Do we have one?

(...)

What are the plans? I want plans.

Thats the bit that I am worried about. Please adress it.

If you do a port and we end up unhappy, for reasons beyond your controll, like us beeing bitchy because we think that silverlight fails, what do you do?

Are you willing to risk your work on our one sided not-agreed upon judgement that you think is wrong?

And if not, what is your plan?

Anytime, if you want to do a flash version (silverlight version being a failure or not, or even while we're still developing it), feel free to do so.

We just offer you an implementation to a specific platform, why would you want us to end up in a "life-style" contract consisting of porting the game to whatever platform until it works?

You know, it's just like when a famous game/show/book is adapted in a movie. People can do it for you, but if you're unhappy, you can still do it again with other people.

We believe it could work on silverlight, but if it doesnt... then you would have to find some other way on your own, sorry.

But I suppose that if you could have found someone for porting it to Flash, I suppose it would have already been done.

However, I only hope we won't be the backup solution that you ditch as soon as you find someone to port it on flash. If it works out for silverlight and a flash version is done later, I would expect from you that both versions are kept in sync, that's all.

[Karawasa]

However, I only hope we won't be the backup solution that you ditch as soon as you find someone to port it on flash. If it works out for silverlight and a flash version is done later, I would expect from you that both versions are kept in sync, that's all.

I'll give you that assurance now. I don't see why the versions have to compete. They can't be uploaded to the same sites, and they are using different technology. Feel free to shoot me down people, but at first glance it would seem having two different implementations is a good thing (provided people behind both are cool with it, which would be the case).

Practical reasons aside, I do recognize that you and your partner are the first team to make substantial progress towards my dream of a genuine Element TD experience beyond WC3. I know I've kept pushing it off, but I will draft a contract for us soon. That will put in writing this assurance.

[Cisz]

Anytime, if you want to do a flash version (silverlight version being a failure or not, or even while we're still developing it), feel free to do so.

We just offer you an implementation to a specific platform, why would you want us to end up in a "life-style" contract consisting of porting the game to whatever platform until it works?

You know, it's just like when a famous game/show/book is adapted in a movie. People can do it for you, but if you're unhappy, you can still do it again with other people.

We believe it could work on silverlight, but if it doesnt... then you would have to find some other way on your own, sorry.

But I suppose that if you could have found someone for porting it to Flash, I suppose it would have already been done.

However, I only hope we won't be the backup solution that you ditch as soon as you find someone to port it on flash. If it works out for silverlight and a flash version is done later, I would expect from you that both versions are kept in sync, that's all.

Kara never started to look for people. He asked like 4 times, and you happen to be the first to say yes. I guess it's safe to assume that you are not the best option.

So you expect a version and our community.

Flash and silverlight are not different. Both are in-browser gaming. If we do parallel versions, we are competition.

That sounds like a big risk for us, and like a possible hostile split of the community. We would have two forums, two leagues, two sets of tournaments, and probably two different versions, as I doubt they will be the same. This sounds a lot like you are getting all of our game. If you keep developing your version into a different direction, then you would be doing an own version outside of our controll. And if we have to support you to keep your version up to date, while we are in reality focussing on a different project, and think you are a lost cause, or even competition (you know, the enemy.. ), we are basically working for the other team.

That's a lot that you ask here. Basically all we have got, as I see it.

[Guest xen]

Anytime, if you want to do a flash version (silverlight version being a failure or not, or even while we're still developing it), feel free to do so.

We just offer you an implementation to a specific platform, why would you want us to end up in a "life-style" contract consisting of porting the game to whatever platform until it works?

You know, it's just like when a famous game/show/book is adapted in a movie. People can do it for you, but if you're unhappy, you can still do it again with other people.

We believe it could work on silverlight, but if it doesnt... then you would have to find some other way on your own, sorry.

But I suppose that if you could have found someone for porting it to Flash, I suppose it would have already been done.

However, I only hope we won't be the backup solution that you ditch as soon as you find someone to port it on flash. If it works out for silverlight and a flash version is done later, I would expect from you that both versions are kept in sync, that's all.

Kara never started to look for people. He asked like 4 times, and you happen to be the first to say yes. I guess it's safe to assume that you are not the best option.

So you expect a version and our community.

Flash and silverlight are not different. Both are in-browser gaming. If we do parallel versions, we are competition.

That sounds like a big risk for us, and like a possible hostile split of the community. We would have two forums, two leagues, two sets of tournaments, and probably two different versions, as I doubt they will be the same. This sounds a lot like you are getting all of our game. If you keep developing your version into a different direction, then you would be doing an own version outside of our controll. And if we have to support you to keep your version up to date, while we are in reality focussing on a different project, and think you are a lost cause, or even competition (you know, the enemy.. ), we are basically working for the other team.

That's a lot that you ask here. Basically all we have got, as I see it.

I messaged EleTD admin and offered him a partnership to do that, not the other way around.

I'm not planning on stealing your community (I'm fine with forum on EleTD). It's just another medium for playing.

Now, you seem to want everything at the same time. You couldn't find anybody to do a flash version and you're not happy with silverlight.

But you got to make a choice at some point, and letting the game die because you're looking for the perfect deal would be a sad end.

Anyway, as I said, I'm very skeptic you would find someone to do it on flash very easily considering the time required to do that and shortcomings of flash.

But if you believe it's a better option for you to wait and see, let me know.

However, I would like you to make your mind. I'd rather code than asking myself if it could work out and doing long discussions about it. That step was 6 months ago for us!

[Cisz]

I messaged EleTD admin and offered him a partnership to do that, not the other way around.

I'm not planning on stealing your community (I'm fine with forum on EleTD). It's just another medium for playing.

Now, you seem to want everything at the same time. You couldn't find anybody to do a flash version and you're not happy with silverlight.

But you got to make a choice at some point, and letting the game die because you're looking for the perfect deal would be a sad end.

Anyway, as I said, I'm very skeptic you would find someone to do it on flash very easily considering the time required to do that and shortcomings of flash.

But if you believe it's a better option for you to wait and see, let me know.

However, I would like you to make your mind. I'd rather code than asking myself if it could work out and doing long discussions about it. That step was 6 months ago for us!

We didn't start looking for flash coders yet, so yes, before we looked, we didn't manage to find one. You seem sure that eletd is impossible on flash. I don't know that, as you are the only one to say so (the casual collective guys say they could do it, they just don't want to or don't have time or the kids are sick or whatever). And you don't know the possibilities of flash 10. So I don't fear the doability at all, and it's not my problem.

Same forums? So you are asking our comunity of us? And ofc the right to have eletd (eternally). Imo there has to be a legit way to end this cooperation for both sides. As I see it you can delete all files any time, clean out the server, and you are out of the deal. What about us? What would be an acceptable exit plan for our side? A minumum contract time? A notice period for cancellation?

[Guest Sancdar]

In short words: I don't see a difference other than that microsoft want's me to use their version. So basically it boils down to if I like microsoft enough to have the same tehnology twice.

Or even shorter:

Microsoft says "Please use ours instead, because we say so."

What is the difference between this and any other competition between relatively equal goods/services? Sometimes I go to the more expensive grocery store that is 1 block from my house instead of the cheaper place that's 10-15 minutes away by bus. There are always trade-offs.

To me, price, speed/convenience, quality, value, and 'personal feelings' all impact choice.

Price - I can't judge this one, it depends on the terms of whatever contract is whipped up.

Speed/Convenience - Silverlight is winning this one, since we haven't found a willing Flash collaborator yet.

Quality - According to Cisz, experts don't give either Flash or Silverlight a clear advantage. Given the fact that Flash 10 and Flash 9 use AS3, I expect that many of the objections brought up by xen with regards to ease of programming are still valid. Improvements have been made, but it's still fundamentally the same.

Value - This is also hard to judge. How much will people enjoy the game? How much money will it make? Market penetration of the underlying technologies is mostly what I have to go on here. Adobe claims 75% of users have Flash 10 player. http://www.riastats.com/ says about 66% for Flash 10, 27% for Silverlight 2. 2% of people have Silverlight 1, most likely that's where all the Linux users get counted. Given the wide range of people who play Flash games, and the fact that a Moonlight alpha with support for Silverlight 2 is due out next month, I don't see this as a major problem. Certain Linux users may feel otherwise.

Personal Feelings - I apparently have Silverlight, but I only remember downloading it because of previous mentions in this thread about the Beijing Olympics. I actually wasn't going to install it until I saw that it was a Microsoft product, because I can't stand the proliferation of 3rd-party media platforms. I'd rather have had Flash, I'll admit, but at least I'm confident that Microsoft isn't actively trying to break my copy of Windows XP. Whether or not I agree with their business practices, I do trust their software to be no more malicious than any of Adobe's.

does silverlight work on sites such as http://kongregate.com and http://newgrounds.com or would we have to stick to your site, our site and sites like http://silverarcade.com ?

Miniclip.com's got Silverlight, Kongregate isn't exclusively Flash and so it's conceivable they might add Silverlight support in the next 6 months. Even if they don't have their API supported, they could still have the game available like with certain Shockwave and Java games. There are other portals with Silverlight support as well.

So you expect a version and our community.

We would have two forums, two leagues, two sets of tournaments

Are people only allowed to play one incarnation of the game? Do I choose between TFT and web-based? Do I have to post on separate forums about balance issues if the tower and creep stats are kept the same between the two?

probably two different versions, as I doubt they will be the same.

Why would they be different if the idea is to have faithful renditions of the game how it is in TFT?

Flash and silverlight are not different. Both are in-browser gaming. If we do parallel versions, we are competition.

I don't see why the versions have to compete. They can't be uploaded to the same sites, and they are using different technology.

exit strategies

Wouldn't ownership be divided up in a contract? I'd assume xen and his posse keeps their backend, such as the ability to implement a multiplayer game using data files etc. and we keep all the intellectual property of EleTD (assuming it is in any way ours, see below). Add provisions about proper notification before pulling the plug on the servers or before deciding to scrap the silverlight edition, and what else? Xen doesn't seem to want exclusive development rights in the least. I don't know why this thread feels so hostile to me when the biggest problem looks to be personal feelings about companies. Everything else is resolvable, right?

The below: is it legal for you/us to distribute a faithful reproduction of Element TD and make money off of it?

The Program also contains a 'World Editor' (the "Editor") that allows you to create custom levels or other materials for your personal use in connection with the Program ("New Materials"). All use of the Editor or any New Materials is subject to this License Agreement.

[...]

C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to:

(iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes including, but not limited to, distribution of New Materials on a stand-alone basis or packaged with other software or hardware through any and all distribution channels, including, but not limited to, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution without the express written consent of Blizzard;

Maybe we should get a note from Blizzard first.

I'm sorry if parts of this post are unfinished/disjointed, but I have to leave for work and I'd rather post this first. I don't really support one technology over the other, but I'm not sure that Silverlight's getting a real fair evaluation in here.

[Cisz]

I don't see why we should discuss silverlight here. We allready did far to much.

We need to discuss contract terms now. It's possible that there can be no contract that is acceptable for both sides. A contract that can't be ended by our side is not acceptable to me.

[Karawasa]

...And that is where I have to step in. I don't think it is appropriate to continue to force xen's hand in replying. I believe he would much rather work on the game itself. If you're worried about the terms of the contract, please take it up with me. xen has proven to be reasonable, so I would be surprised if we can't come to an agreement.

@Sancdar: The things that I would claim IP on are not related to the editor. I remember talking with Pendragon_ (from League of Legends, the retail DotA game) about this and I'm confident that we are fine in this regard. Models, icons, sounds etc. are out of our reach, but what really makes ETD is certainly not.

PS: I'm happy to hear that you (xen) are fine with the forums being here (eletd.com). I think it will prove beneficial to everyone if there is one hub for the game itself. We will figure out how to segregate the versions later.

[Guest xen]

...And that is where I have to step in. I don't think it is appropriate to continue to force xen's hand in replying. I believe he would much rather work on the game itself. If you're worried about the terms of the contract, please take it up with me. xen has proven to be reasonable, so I would be surprised if we can't come to an agreement.

@Sancdar: The things that I would claim IP on are not related to the editor. I remember talking with Pendragon_ (from League of Legends, the retail DotA game) about this and I'm confident that we are fine in this regard. Models, icons, sounds etc. are out of our reach, but what really makes ETD is certainly not.

PS: I'm happy to hear that you (xen) are fine with the forums being here (eletd.com). I think it will prove beneficial to everyone if there is one hub for the game itself. We will figure out how to segregate the versions later.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Maybe the fact that I didn't want exclusivity wasn't clear to others, and that's why they might have been scared first.

I don't see why it has to be a split if you happen to have different version. Actually, keeping the community together would probably be beneficial for both of us.

Also, just to clarify what I said earlier, I didn't say it is impossible in flash. What I meant was, it would require a lot of effort -- probably enough to make it very discouraging for people doing it on their free time (but it's definitely possible given enough time/motivation of course). That probably lower your chance of finding someone willing to make it and who won't give up while doing it as they realize it's much more work that they expect. However, I do hope that you find one (esp. if the silverlight version happens to fail).

Just wanted you to be aware of the work that would need to be done in case you find someone claiming he could do it in 10 days

[Guest xen]

Since my friend and I worked a lot on art during the latest days, here is one screenshot of the current dev version.

Of course, much better to see it moving with:

- explosions animation when creep dies

- sparks spreading out each time a creep is hit by a tower

- tower attack range fading in/out as you move mouse over

- tower information also fading in/out

- smooth zoom with scrollwheel (with minimap on lower left getting updated)

etc...

Hope you'll like it!

Please note that a lot of things are far from being final. For example, map art and system to generate it has just been done today and need better texture. I will add trees and glowing lights. Same goes for tower diversity, etc...

[jolin012]

until we have a beta, keep those screenshots coming they are appreciated.

Really sorry that I have to hand in some negative critiques, but I'd have to be honest since this is serious business -.-

*I don't Like the sharp edges of the cliffs. The shadows show that they are cliffs but I still don't like those sharp edges.

*I don't like the ground being some type of steel plating or w/e it is.

*I do like the look of cannon tower, but the arrow tower looks erm, laser-ish, it could maybe be the base for a laser tower instead.

*glad to here that this is just the beginning I like the multi board and that it seems to be removable. I can't see though what those original eletd symbols mean

little more coming maybe now i gotta go

[Guest xen]

until we have a beta, keep those screenshots coming they are appreciated.

Really sorry that I have to hand in some negative critiques, but I'd have to be honest since this is serious business -.-

*I don't Like the sharp edges of the cliffs. The shadows show that they are cliffs but I still don't like those sharp edges.

*I don't like the ground being some type of steel plating or w/e it is.

*I do like the look of cannon tower, but the arrow tower looks erm, laser-ish, it could maybe be the base for a laser tower instead.

*glad to here that this is just the beginning I like the multi board and that it seems to be removable. I can't see though what those original eletd symbols mean

little more coming maybe now i gotta go

It's fine, you're welcome to do negatives critiques, that's what is going to make the project move forward!

As for graphics, as you might realize, it's very temporary. I have been doing that map art generator just yesterday, and so I haven't really been looking for good textures, but more to test the concept (2 days ago it was just an ugly black metallic map). It will of course be updated later (I have just quickly found 3 textures from cgtextures.com). I agree the cliff one need to be much better.

Note that for graphics, we're doing something basic, but we're in discussion with an artist to hopefully have real graphics before first release. If it happens to be a "no go", we'll do better graphics on our own. We just didn't want to spend too much time on graphics if we're not sure they are the ones that will be used.

If we happen to do graphics on our own, it might be harder for us to do real art such as fantasy creatures (we're not graphists at all, just coders, actually I'm sometimes impressed we manage to do so much with our current art skills ;P), so we might have to go with a more "futuristic" style. However that's something I would rather avoid, but it depends of how soon we want to release it.

Anyway, even if we start with our own art, plan to ask a graphic artist will be done as soon as possible (financially).

Same goes for tower, etc...

Multiboard is not styled yet, so it will be a bit nicer soon. One cool feature is that it's easy to sort by name, score, netgrowth, etc... Panel is expandable and movable too.

Original td symbols on the right is the "Elemental Summoning Center". No need to have a building like in WC3 since we can have our own UI (same goes for base tower construction, no need to select the peon, we can always keep them in a specific panel). I suppose that has to be done on WC3 because UI can't be modified.

I plan to put online a version that you can test, it's much much better to see it in action (lot of interactivity).

[Cisz]

What gui possibilities do you have?

Custom tower grouping with hotkeys possible? Microing impulse to attack long range?

You probably have no right click, right?

[jolin012]

nah, silverlight is the same as flash in having no rightclick. but clicking A is fine by me. oh - btw, silverlight has something that wc3 doesn't, it should be possible to hold A, right? so the holding A would make leftclick mean attack, maybe even a cursor change into a sword or an arrow, if it's possible making it attack the unit instead of targetting the unit for info just like shift is for building multiple of the same tower.. right?

I am excited about the screen things too. the minimap, seems clickable. does arrow keys work too to move map around? can I drag the mouse to the corners of the screen (or beyond the corners) to also scroll over the area?

one of these is enough, more would be awesome

[Guest xen]

What gui possibilities do you have?

Custom tower grouping with hotkeys possible? Microing impulse to attack long range?

You probably have no right click, right?

Custom tower grouping with hotkeys will be possible and done (same way as W3 probably, Shift/Ctrl + 1/2/3/4 etc...).

What do you mean by microing impulse?

Right click is not officially supported (context menu like in flash), however I know there is some ways to work around that. But it's better to assume it's not present as it's browser specific hack (if I remember right, should be possible on IE/Firefox tho). Could always implement something that could be done another way using right click.

Actually, mouse wheel is supposedly not supported officially too, but I have been able to capture it using the same way to allow quick zoom/unzoom.

FYI, I have put a dev version online you can play around with at http://youlii.com/td/TestPage.html

Please remember it's a early DEV version, _lot_ of finition need to be done in term of behavior, game design, graphics, etc..., so no need to point out every little details, we know most of them (but still open to suggestion tho, was just to avoid getting thousands of them for every little obvious things we are already aware of ).

FYI, real work started about 1.5 month ago, and we're doing that on our spare time (i.e. I was very busy with school+finals+graduation until 2 weeks ago, I also have a fulltime job, and preparation to move to a foreign country for my new job + going to flying school nearly every days ; same goes for my friends), so overall I would say that given the time spent on it, it's really progressing at a very good rate.

[Guest xen]

Just to let you know, sorry about lack of update, I have just moved to Japan two days ago in order to start my new job.

The week before that has been very busy with preparation, visa/immigration stuff, and finishing up all the project from my last job.

I have just bought a desktop computer yesterday (finally... I have spent more than one year with only a 13.3 inches laptop because I have been moving between different places every 4 months... It was so boring to develop with only that!).

I still need a few days to adjust myself but development should be back at a normal pace very soon.

[Cisz]

Good luck with the new job/flat.

I'm still concerned about the ending clause of your deal with kara/us. Maybe you should halt developing for a moment and work on the deal instead. I have a bad feeling about you guys putting your time into a project that has no working agreement yet.

And we all (xen? Karawasa?) agree upon the deal needing legit ways to entirely end it for both sides, right?