dg86

The reason is so that in a high-level competitive game when everyone's on very hard that it is viable to stack the front with optimum grenades and rush people early game, then sell all those and build further back, so you can make them leak in the beginning.

You're not supposed to flat out favor any "damage" tower over another. Instead, you should select based on the situation. In other words, damage type/creep type/support type/AoE (or not) type. Now you're just theorycrafting. At the beginning of the game, you have to have a certain strategy in mind, because you won't be able to get every tower. And you have to specialize in 3-4 elements or all your towers will be weak. This means that at the end of the day, you'll have a couple of damage towers, a couple of support towers, and the rest are prerequisites to those. Meaning, no matter which strategy you use, you'll have some sort of creep type or element type you won't do so well against. Meaning, no matter what you specialize in, you're going to get screwed in some way, so you have to find a way to specialize that screws you least. Currently, the obliteration tower is a "screws you least" type of tower. Long range, heavy damage, aoe. With earth, you get longer range aoe with lesser damage (so mass more) in the form of mortar towers (which also cover your weakness to light). You also get a slow and amp tower. And you get a support tower. So you are more or less about as rounded as a combination can get. So why should we choose a tower that requires micro, which probably will be equal at best to obliteration tower, but require more micro? Right now, this tower is just looking like the bonus the laser is to DELN. Instead, you go DFLN for nova, jinx, and oblit, and the radius will be a never-used bonus. Is that the intention?

yea u miss a few spots, but something like 20% less from perfect is not bad at all. u can boost adjust the numbers so that even without micro it will do good damage. if u DO micro, it will be worth your apm. celery tower, the worst you can do is like 0%, rather than a safe 80%-ish. ur right u wont get 100% efficiency. paths aren't circular, and u can always do better. but there is a sort of safety net with this tower., and if the nubmers are bumpbed, then all is well. it would fit right in the concept of "no micro decent damage, yes micro better damage. No, I mean that it only hits 20% of the time. That it's going in a circle while the creeps are going in squares/rectangles/other forms of right angles. So about 80% of the time, those fireballs are wandering around in space, not hitting anything. Then 20% of the time, they're hitting something. And we're supposed to favor this over the obliteration tower?

IMO it's not "really" strong. On very hard or whatnot, once the fruit starts flying, I can only get to 20some kills. (Though this is in multiplayer with leaks because of time constraints.) IMO it's the standard. Try playing very hard--on any strategy--in a pub game. Tell me how well you do when you have some imbecile going herp derp mass 12 o clock on very easy look at me I'm GDLK. If you can win, great! Those towers are legitimately viable to build. If you can't, however, odds are, tower needs a buff.

No. Think about it. You set the range, making it orbit that range. So, this little orb goes in a circle. You intend for it to hit some parts of that circle which are on the path that the creeps take. Except that path isn't circular at all. So you set the range hoping that 20% of the time it's working, it hits the creeps in a few specific spots. Now unless the damage is 5x that of the obliteration tower, I really can't see any justification in having such a convoluted, attention-whoring mechanic. Why should I get this tower, instead of massing more oblit towers?

Range is adjustable--who cares? Once again, it's not a "micro once in a while". It's a "devote the rest of your attention to" type of micro. I mean unless it's like this massive orb that's like 4 units wide or something so it can pass clean over entire chunks of the maze, you're going to have to babysit the crap out of it from the sounds of it.

Okay take an extreme example: 7 players on very easy massing mildew/elemental grenade/jet/frost/water/fire/nameYourAoE towers at 12 o clock. 1 guy on very hard. This isn't an uncommon scenario. Once again, you're punishing the player who took on a challenge and awarding the very easy players. At the least, IMO, there should be varying levels of base interest. Very easy gets 2% Easy gets 2.25% Normal gets 2.5% Hard gets 2.75% Very hard gets 3% base interest IMO by making the countdown start on the first player's wave clear, you're really discouraging players from actually challenging themselves.

Then why did you make the manual reload time longer?! I watch my oblits like a hawk since they do all my damage when I'm playing DELN, and if I need a reload, I need a reload!

Oh, so it's more or less like celerity--except if you're not in its magical range, it does NO damage. Epic fail.

That was an error on my part regarding the tooltips. The fighters actually have two attacks so it's double damage. Currently it stands at 120*5=600 damage at 1 speed. It does sound interesting. What else can we do with target filters? We'd have prefer lower HP (clean up crew), normal (closest proximity), and perhapst prefer highest HP (tenderizer crew)?. If not the last option, any other ideas for target filter? I'd like to have three options in all. Laser=600 damage at 12 range single target (or across all targets, however you want to see it) Obliteration=400 damage at 16 range multiple targets. It's not even close.

Wrong thread...

I can sort of see your argument, but consider this: say you have 4 damage towers (any mix of annihilation/comet). By building one deceit tower, you get 4 clones. So now you need 2 spring towers to support those 8 towers, costing you a total of 2500. I suppose that's a deal compared to having an invocation or other 30% amp damage tower since 30% on those 8 towers is about the same sort of deal. The problem is that DLNW has no slow tower whatsoever. This is, needless to say, pretty critical, wouldn't you think? Especially when the tsunami and flooding towers seem to be a bit redundant considering the presence of two long-ranged heavy-damage towers already.

There's a difference if everyone is on VH random and if new players just go "derp I saw people rush front so I'll do it too hurr durr". I mean in pub games, I select hard difficulty because I know that you can't really play very hard if someone who's simply "seen it done before" selects very easy and masses optimal or elemental grenade towers at 12 o clock. I'm saying that a player on very easy shouldn't be able to rush someone playing on very hard. It just makes no sense. Considering that the time it takes for a creep to clear the whole maze is a LOT longer than the 5-10 seconds it takes a VE player to clear his wave and the 40 seconds it takes the countdown to count down.

16 range quark tower?! YES PLEASE! Except IMO I wish it could be a fire damage tower since we already have a light and dark mass aoe damage tower.

Okay, if we have oblit (darkness) and hail (light), why are we getting another long ranged aoe tower with darkness type damage? It'd be better with fire damage IMO. Of course, I'm assuming it's an AoE type effect. If it's a single target tower at 1.5 speed, it's going to be as worthless as wealth.

ANOTHER nerf on obliteration? Why?!

Well just about anything doesn't work in multiplayer if you're playing on Very Hard and depend on creeps passing your long-pass towers twice before the next wave comes and there's some douchebag playing on very easy jamming the front up with fountain'd or factory'd mold towers.

Dark Light Nature Water. Your four triple towers are: Hail Torrent Flooding Obliteration Hail and obliteration are more or less redundant (hail does better vs. fast waves and darkness waves I suppose, but meh). Torrent is yet another AoE tower, and flooding is just plain terrible by design concept. Furthermore, the idea that you "make up" for no slow/amplification by having tier 3 dual support is just plain wrong. Once again, consider Dark Earth Light Nature. You have a slow (barb) You have an amp (evoc) You have an aoe (oblit) You have a bad bonus tower (laser) And you can get the tier 3 dark/light support tower (deceit) if you go one interest, quad element level 2, and level 3 light+dark (you'll have the whole combo online by wave 55). For instance, DLNW right now is an absolutely terrible build because you can substitute water for nature and have a far superior build.

There's a replay (if you can get them to work) of EFL getting 268 fruit kills on very hard in solo mode.

Ah I see. But that still doesn't change the fact that if you're going for deceit towers, you might as well use obliteration towers since they mesh extremely well with earth, as opposed to hail, which due to its light type damage, meshes far less so, since if you try to cover its weakness with nature, DLNW has no slow towers and no amp damage towers. Torrent and flooding are two of the worst towers in the game right now, meaning DELN is far superior to DELW thanks to this one change.

Back to DELN it is.

Well, as of comet being changed to light, DELN is definitely the best four-tower combo in the game. I was able to win on multiplayer with 10 lives left by the time I got to fruit with like 15 fruit kills or so. Not sure if it's even possible to win with any other strategy on very hard when you have people who rush the front on easier modes.

Because by the time you can get one, you'll have gotten rocked by leaking plenty of earth waves already. And chiquihuite, the deceit towers are definitely the weakest. I believe they create up to 4 clones, and each tower can only be cloned once (EG you can't get a single pure light, mass deceits, and get a zillion pure light clones, though that'd be nice). So you get 4*100% from deceit, but from factory/fountain, you get 4*120%. So with the other two, you not only get a better effect, but you get better positioning. Right now, the reason deceit is more useful is that obliteration/annihilation+mortar is probably the single best damage tower combo in the game and no other reason. But going back to hail/comet--of course it's an issue that all your damage towers (and your support tower!) are of one damage type. Otherwise why bother even having elemental properties for the enemies to begin with and not just make them all composite?

What I mean is if in a pubby if I set it on very hard, I should be able to take my sweet time, not get rushed by someone on very easy mode that puts all his towers at the front choke. It doesn't matter that there's a 40 second countdown if my very hard strategy in a solo run depends upon using multiple 2-pass strategies if the second wave starts before I get my second pass in.

This really pisses me off to no end...why do pub players always build in the freaking front? It more or less makes everybody's towers half as effective since you don't have time for the creeps to do a 2nd pass. IMO if you want the right to rush someone, you should be playing on their difficulty level if not higher. Discuss.