Creep Shakeup

[Karawasa]

In doing the recent changes to the creep waves for the beta, it became apparent to me that the creep order in the game could perhaps use some work. Thus, I would like to see what we can do to change around the order of creeps, so that the game is more balanced for all builds. So there is no confusion, I am not talking about attributes of the creeps, just the order.

The first five levels are completely insignificant, so they will not be considered. Likewise, the Evil Child will remain at level 60, for legacy sake. Here is the list of creeps, 6-59:

6 Earth Quillboar

7 Water Toy Boat Mechanical

8 Nature Stag

9 Fire Fel Beast Heals

10 Light Wisp Fast

11 Darkness Dark Minion Undead

12 Non-Elemental Spirit of Vengence

13 Fire Succubus

14 Light Wagon Mechanical

15 Earth Kobold Digger

16 Water Sea Revenant Undead

17 Nature Furbolg Warrior Heals

18 Darkness Sludge minion

19 Non-Elemental Knight

20 Nature Giant Spider Fast

21 Earth Siege Tank Mechanical

22 Water Makura Deepseer

23 Light Ghost Undead

24 Darkness Shadow Wolf Heals

25 Fire Troll Batrider Fast

26 Nature Corrupted Treant

27 Non-Elemental Bandit

28 Fire Demolisher Mechanical

29 Water Naga

30 Earth Mountain Giant

31 Light Priest Heals

32 Non-Elemental Death Knight Undead

33 Darkness Draenei Protector

34 Nature Thunder Lizard

35 Water Albatross

36 Darkness Infernal Contraption Mechanical

37 Light Crystal Arachnid

38 Fire Fire Revenant Undead

39 Earth Dune Worm Heals

40 Light Snowy Owl

41 Earth Centaur Fast

42 Non-Elemental Battle Golem Fast

43 Nature Dark Elf Undead

44 Darkness Dreadlord

45 Fire Fel Guard

46 Water Watery Minion Heals

47 Darkness Black Drake

48 Water Admiral Fast

49 Nature Glaive Thrower Mechanical

50 Earth Giant Rat Undead

51 Light Paladin

52 Earth Harpy Rogue

53 Fire Red Dragon

54 Non-Elemental Goblin Shredder Mechanical

55 Light Archmage

56 Water Hydra

57 Nature Green Dragon

58 Fire Lava Runner

59 Darkness Doom Guard Fast

Discuss!

[Guest MasterTenor]

There are two non-elemental mechanical waves, and no non-elemental fast or healing waves. I would like to see either a non fast or a non healing make an appearence, as they would be the levels most poised to do damage to most player's current builds.

[Karawasa]

Modified classifications to reflect this distribution:

Heals: WFDLNEC

Fast: WFDLNEC

Mech: WFDLNEC

Undead: WFDLNEC

Models/Names can be switched around, after the order is determined. The idea, is that there should be 7 heals/fast/mech/undead, one for each armor type.

[Karawasa]

Thanks to MagicalHacker for a VERY useful tool in figuring out the solution:

http://redlizard.nl/creep_distribution.php

It is still a work in progress, but even now it is still very useful.

Looking forward to seeing what you guys can come up with.

[Cisz]

As much as I admire the coding of MagicalHacker, for this problem I ceated my own tool. It's very, er, hardware.

[Cisz]

Ok ok ok, here is my sequence (### indicates an element spawn):

• 5 non ###

6 w

7 e

8 l fast

9 d

10 n undead ###

11 f

12 e fast

13 w

14 l

15 f healing ###

16 d undead

17 n

18 non fast

19 l healing

20 e mech ###

21 f undead

22 non

23 n

24 w mech

25 d fast

26 f

27 l

28 n healing

29 d

30 e undead ###

31 w fast

32 non mech

33 n

34 f

35 d healing ###

36 w

37 l mech

38 non undead

39 e

40 n fast ###

41 w undead

42 d

43 e healing

44 l

45 non

46 f mech

47 w

48 l undead

49 d

50 n mech ###

51 e

52 f fast

53 l

54 n

55 w healing ###

56 non

57 f

58 d mech

59 e

60 non healing ###

And here is the sequence in MagicalHackers tool: >> Click here<<

The worst thing about it is probably "no fire for 12 waves". Apart from that it's pretty much flawlessly brutal.

[05:48] hyperprimate: hmm.. one thought... atleast in the end this is the hardest possible combination, meaning that chaos will always be easier

[05:48] Cisz: oh - interesting

[05:48] Cisz: well, it hasnt got the maximum atributes though

[05:49] hyperprimate: true, the 7 last levels all being healing would be harder

[05:49] Cisz: hehe

Check out my special, er, hardware:

And another one in the process of sequencing:

So, are you scared now?

[Karawasa]

Very impressive work Cisz, I commend you.

I have been playing around with your distribution, this is what I have here.

Just some minor tweaks, up for grabs.

[Cisz]

Could you list all your changes and the reasons for them?

[Karawasa]

I should have kept track .

Switched 45 and 56.

Places an undead closer to the end of the game, for greater challenge (otherwise there would be only one at 48

Switched 8 with 44.

Places a fast closer to the end of the game, where it will do more damage (there was a considerable gap between fast at 44, it seemed good).

Switched various amount of Elements.

My attempt to spread things out a little more, and also eliminate the excess hard sequences.

It is just a sequence I came up with while messing around with Cisz's, so as I said it is up for grabs. Feel free to use any ideas from it.

[Karawasa]

Don't be intimidated by this thread guys, I'd appreciate more input on this important issue.

[Guest hyperprimate]

Compared to 3.0 Cisz’s creep distribution contains a lot more “hard sequences”, particularly towards the end. I know it’s intentional, but exactly what are we trying to accomplish with this? It seems to me that more hard sequences increase the imbalance between pick- and random-mode. If we want a harder end-game maybe it would be better to adjust the hitpoint formula.

[Guest mrchak]

I like the idea of harder sequences at the end of the game, by then you should have enough element choices to handle it.

As far as random players, I'm probably going to play chaos mode for the rest of my life, so the order decided won't really affect people like me.

One thing that comes to mind then - in CHAOS mode, maybe the first 5 levels should be shuffled, then levels 6-60 should be shuffled; so we dont' end up with elemental armor on the first 5 levels, eh?

[Karawasa]

As far as random players, I'm probably going to play chaos mode for the rest of my life, so the order decided won't really affect people like me.

The success of Chaos mode .

Good point MrChak, instead of this:

For each (Integer A) from 0 to 59, do (Actions)
    Loop - Actions
        Set Random_Spawn = (Random integer number between 0 and 59)
        Set Temp_Spawn = Spawns[(Integer A)]
        Set Spawns[(Integer A)] = Spawns[Random_Spawn]
        Set Spawns[Random_Spawn] = Temp_Spawn

I will do this:

For each (Integer A) from 5 to 59, do (Actions)
    Loop - Actions
        Set Random_Spawn = (Random integer number between 5 and 59)
        Set Temp_Spawn = Spawns[(Integer A)]
        Set Spawns[(Integer A)] = Spawns[Random_Spawn]
        Set Spawns[Random_Spawn] = Temp_Spawn

Back on-topic though, in my distribution I reduced the number of hard sequences from 14 to 12 (so no extras). Looking forward to sequence/distributions from other people .

[Guest Sancdar]

I kind of like having all the levels shuffled, it makes the game much harder because it leaves more composite levels later on.

[Karawasa]

Trying to revive this topic again, now that the Element Distribution has finally been resolved. Please, do critique Cisz's or my distribution, and feel free to create your own!

[Guest Sancdar]

Any decision on whether to make chaos hard (shuffle includes 1-5) or easy?

[Cisz]

It really makes no sense to have healers before wave 7, as two super arrows one-shoot them even on very hard. so if I roll healers early, the game gets easier. The later fast and healing come, the harder.

[Guest Sancdar]

I don't think fast is hard late-game, although healing is. But even so, with the huge buff to composite creeps I'd rather have healing late than composite.