[beta 16] flesh golems...

[Twilice]

They seem like they still don't work.

What did I do wrong this time?

Also extreme is better now. Still extreme.

buggy....w3g

[Cisz]

I still don't get the hang of golem. I mean, it's an st tower, right?

The fact that you build several to get a decent dmg doesn't make it really anything but an st tower, or did I miss something.

Has anybody put the movement of it to any use? Isn't it far to slow to do any better than the regular two pass?

[Twilice]

I mean there was a bug.

Didn't you se I used them as "nod" state somethimes, but they didn't boost eachother.

[Cisz]

And I mean: Maybe the bug is not important, as the tower is not worth working on it. If it would work bugfree, it is an st tower you need to mass to make it worthwhile, right? So is that concept interesting? Don't we need another tower here? Or has anybody ever done something that implies that this tower has the chance to be anything other than a boring st tower?

[Twilice]

booring st target anough said

[jolin012]

what was wrong with the old flesh golem, like public beta or w/e it was removed? the one that grows in strength the more damage it deals? it has a unique concept, it sure does.

I once again suggest to reinsert it, up the movement speed a bit, replace the xx%bonus damage with 100% chance for 1.xx times normal damage. That is the same as before, but stacking with blacksmith, which was the main reason why it was removed at all.

Also - i have figured an idea that does seem easy to implement. Instead of having the ability be a passive ability, it would be an item, and that drops on death(and sell). token/item of lvl xx can be picked up by another fleshgolem to enable selling/rebuilding and selling. (or picked up by builder to enable relocation between the different lands of the maze, area 4 6 -) ofcourse several items don't stack, only the strongest counts. if we want we could make so that nly one token can be carried at a time.

these are all the details, no more, and all of it I've seen in several custom maps and think it shouldn't be very hard to code.

[Guest Timberwolf]

what was wrong with the old flesh golem, like public beta or w/e it was removed? the one that grows in strength the more damage it deals? it has a unique concept, it sure does.

Pretty much this.

I always felt like Flesh Golem got changed just for the sake of change, as opposed to changed for the sake of bringing anything new that was needed to the table. I'm still in favor of a return to flesh golem classic, size growth bugs and all.

[Cisz]

The main problem with a growing tower is that it is to weak early on and either just about right later on (which makes it suck before that) or a bit too strong (which makes it to bad first and to good later on).

[jolin012]

The main problem with a growing tower is that it is to weak early on and either just about right later on (which makes it suck before that) or a bit too strong (which makes it to bad first and to good later on).

why is it a problem? if average dmg for a triple is 9k, and golem starts at 8k and lvls up to 10k dmg, where is the problem? it is different from others a bit, but it's rather unique. And having a little stronger endgame at the cost of less interestfarming earlygame, or the risk of getting rushed earlygame, or perhaps a few leaks earlygame.

why is that not a working concept? The damage doesn't have to raise by 200% as in early 4.0 betas. i mean you say to bad first and to good later on, i agree its worse earlier and better later, that's the point of the concept, but why is it too strong/weak, where does the imbalance occur?

[jolin012]

-Golem, imo does not work yet, like "not work at all". Maybe add teleport, or a serious movespeed boost?

sure, needs work, . please don't remove this thread when beta 16 threads are moved to achieved reports, because it is an active topic anyway. as for teleport, i don't like that, it doesnt make sence with flesh golem, unless we add a meat hook that (works like links hookshot) hits the ground at up to 1000 range away, and then instead of rolling in the catch, it travels itself to where on the ground it hit, same as blink but much slower and more realistic for a flesh golem. the linkmode doesn't work well imo, neither makes sence.

[Cisz]

Karawasa mentioned that "it moves", but realistically, it does not move at all. Imo the only way to change this is to make it either much faster, so it can fire at the same wave again after it has passed by (for more than a two pass), or to make it switch ledges, which ammounts to a teleport. Call it hook, I call it "making it move in a relevant way".

As for the dmg increase/time: I have the feeling that if this is a small effect, it's not worth the effort to code it, as it basically just is an st tower with no rebuild ability or use in most random. And if the effect is big enough to be notable, I'd say the resulting tower is either unballanced or to weak.

Compared to a standard st tower:

-If golem ends on a slightly buffed dmg and starts on a slightly nerfed damage, the effect is basically not there.

-Start on notably nerfed dmg, ending on slightly buffed, to weak.

-Anything ending on notably buffed, to strong.

I have the feeling that with a growing golem there is no zone where the effect is still there, but not messing up the ballance, as the intended behaviour of the tower (grow in strength over time; that is a changing dmg/gold/sec) is threatening the ballance in itself. Imo only the ending or the starting state of the tower can be ballanced, the other will be out of ballance, or maybe both.

That's why I ask: Is there more to this tower than a changing dmg/sec/gold? If not, I request a new tower. So why not nerf/keep moderate the dmg change (assuming we revert to a 3.0 golem) and increase the movement speed? That would be a unique feature to this tower, that actually rewards micro. Teleport or huge speed buff maybe?

[jolin012]

stable damage, but higher movementspeed+lower hook/teleport CD is a neat idea, i like it higher movement speed really is needed, perhaps that can be through the ability, like cisz sais if i understand him correctly.

[jolin012]

after irc discussion, i see what you mean, not speed that increase with levels, just a general movementspeed increase, which i agree with. In the irc there came new ideas, such as for the meanthook/hookshot to only hook onto targets, and one target is located at each place that a fleshgolem was built. so that with mroe than one golem, they can hook between area "5","9" and "-" for example.

I got one new idea, that instead of experience that makes the golem grow stronger, which we don't like balancewise, how about: with levels, the Golem grows in damage and size, but loses movementspeed(perhaps also increased hook cooldown over levels). the loss in ms is to compromise the gained dmg, to keep it balanced, what do you think? you could begin with 2 golems, microing them with their good movementspeed, and once they grow larger and larger, ye spend more time microing other stuff, like your supporttowers that should be owned by that time. And, if we would use the suggested "level by item" it could be dropped if the player prefers micro. but then it loses teh damage ofcourse.

the current golem sure isnt' an interesting tower.

[Guest DevouringOne]

These golems are pain in the neck...Actually almost no one uses them hmm...They can be easily blocked by two towers.

[jolin012]

took some screens of current hooks i know from the game. the one with the glaive is from Pudge Wars, and the one without is from Dota. Biggest differance except the look would be that in pudge wars you can move while having the hook out.

mostly for those who didn't know how a hook would look like

hook.png

[Twilice]

I cant se how the book exactly would fit into eletd.

But pudge wards is extemly fun.

And playing as pudge is quite fun on dota 2.

[echinodermata]

The new 16c golems are nice.

A few small problems though:

You temporarily cant build on the spot where the teleporting golem just landed

Trying to teleport onto the creep path doesnt do anything, and wastes your mana too

If a bunch of golems teleport to the same place the ground turns dark

[jolin012]

I cant se how the book exactly would fit into eletd.

But pudge wards is extemly fun.

And playing as pudge is quite fun on dota 2.

Because instead of a regular teleport, which doesn't make cosmetical sence on golem imo, there would be a meathook that hooks onto the ground up to 1000range away, and pulls teh golem there. Note that the golem can attack/move while it's casting hook, just like pudgewars, so it's not like 4 sec lost every hook. and it should be slightly faster than in pudgewars imo.

A few small problems though:

You temporarily cant build on the spot where the teleporting golem just landed

Trying to teleport onto the creep path doesnt do anything, and wastes your mana too

If a bunch of golems teleport to the same place the ground turns dark

Imo, it shouldn't need to exist an empty platform where you cant build, where the golem was last appearing(built or blinked).