Long range towers - how to balance them

[Cisz]

There is a problem with long range towers so far. (You might want to look up the numpad notation again.) Here it goes:

If I use a standard mid range tower (600-700 range, fires once per second), and place it on two pass (that is in a way, that the creeps pass by it two times), like on the right side of the map, one tower will shoot about 30 times at a wave.

I did a time experiment:

Tower placed on 3 (numpad notation). Wave one starts on 0:47, ends on 1:33, 46 seconds time.

Tower placed on 4 (numpad notation). Wave one starts on 0:45, ends on 1:21, 36 seconds time.

Add five seconds delay before the next wave, and you get the time a player has to clear the wave in a game with decent oponents. If I actually race the game, this would be even shorter.

If we use the longer time, a tower that covers the entire map with it's range would have 51 seconds to bring down a wave. It needs to take out 30 creeps, so it has 1.7 seconds per creep. If we calculate the towers damage based on a firing rate of once per second, the tower has to have 1/1.7= ~0,59 times the damage of a short range tower, if it should do the same amount of damage to a wave in the given time. Remember, this is with about infinite range, so the tower never stops firing, and with the oponents playing the slower two pass.

This is about what long range towers do as a damage right now (as for laser or dark compared to rainbow or gold).

But in reality, you often have only the 41secs, because your oponent plays on 4 (numpad notation) and this leads to the tower needing 0.8 times the damage (41/51=~0.8 ). And even if he plays slow (on area 3) you don't have the range to keep firing right from the entering point down to area 3. You have to kill the last creep at exactly the same spot as the short range two pass player, down at area 3, because this is how far they move in 51 secs.

Shooting at creeps all the time, from starting point to area 3, for 51 seconds, is the maximum damage output your tower can do. Even if you use heavy slowing, your tower won't do more damage. While the short range tower delivers an equal damage in 30 seconds. It fires roughly once at every creep, thats 30 shoots, takes 30secs. So with clever slowing and a fast placement your short range tower gets even a little faster. It just needs to deliver it's damage very early on the creeps path, with a very short time before the firing starts. If the wave needs more time to be killed, like wave 46 or 51, and you have to slow them a lot to get extra shoots, the short range towers advantage gets greater with time, as it deals 20% more damage per second.

For a long range tower to be equal to a short range tower placed on area 3, it needs about 0.59 the damage of a short range tower and enough range to reach both the entrance and area 3.

And for short range on 4 it needs 0.8 times the damage and enough range to cover the entrance and the path right below area 4. Keep in mind that this allready includes the waiting time between waves.

The long range towers, as they are now, barely reach the first requirements (laser actually does), most of them lack the range. None of them can stand the second scenario.

This means, that long range (like the one of the dark tower) equals 0.8 times the damage of a short range tower. (Single target, no support.) Imo less damage can not be compensated by more range. Darks range imo is the maximum balancable range.

Armour reduction towers leads to the short range tower beeing stronger, because long range builds need to reduce the creeps armour over a longer part of the pass. Strong slowing leads to the short range tower beeing stronger, because they can deal their damage with less waiting time before the creeps arive and deal more damage over time. Light slowing that still requires the short range tower to be played on two pass would reduce the required range of the long range tower, as the creeps don't travel that far. But it would't lead to long range making the kill faster.

Basically long range towers need to be at least 0.8 times the damage of a short range tower imo.

This leads ofc to a well placed long range tower to make it's kill nearly as fast as a short range tower on area 4. (Remeber again that all my calculations are based on a short range player finishing the wave first and a long range player catching up in the delay time between waves just to be done as the next wave enters. And keep in mind, that a player racing the map on area 7 with some strong slowing and splash will mop the floor with long range any time. 0.8 or not.)

80% sounds to much? I agree, it sounds to much. But still, so far long range plain sucks, right?

Discuss.

[Guest mrchak]

You raise very good points. To me the long range towers are good for one purpose that other towers can't do: quick build wherever my builder happens to be to target spawns that are about to leak.

I like your idea about rebalancing the damage, but I think we should keep in mind that sometimes these towers have uses that can't be quantified so easily. Many times I've been saved by building a light or dark tower in the center of the map because it can reach the leak area fast, and I didnt' have time to go up there to build.

As another point, to play devil's advocate, It's ok for the map to have some towers that seem really awesome but in reality are not as great, for the reliance on those towers is what will separate the pros from the amateurs.

This is not to say I disagree, I'm just raising some alternate viewpoints.

[Guest Sancdar]

If I'm playing actively, there is almost never a situation in which I need to build an emergency long-range tower in the center. This would only happen if a player is unaware that he is going to leak until the last like ten seconds, and the leaks are easily killed by a Basic or Advanced Light/Dark tower, since you definitely don't have the time at that point to upgrade further. However, if you notice even like 5 seconds earlier you could get up there and build a level 3 arrow (or maybe even elemental) or two, and they will take care of the problem. So, I guess I can see players liking a long-range or two in the basic towers, because if you are not playing well it can save you.

However, in addition to TWO basic long-range towers, we have 1 dual and two triples (I think hail is pretty long-range, but I could be wrong...I haven't used it in ages). This seems a little excessive.

In my mind though, long-range towers are justifiably weaker than short-range towers. The reason is that they are mainly designed for beginners. Proper placement of a long-range tower is immediately obvious - you put it in the middle, where it has the most firing time. Proper placement of a short-range build however takes more thought and effort to develop, as slow placement and tower placement are much more important as regards the amount of time you have to spew out your ridiculous levels of damage. So, long-range towers should be at least slightly weaker because they are easier to use.

[Guest mrchak]

Yes Agree - they are for beginners, but I don't think that means they should be taken out of the game. And yes they should be less powerful than short range.

[Guest Sancdar]

I don't suggest that they be taken out completely, I suggest scaling back to possibly one of the basic towers, and definitely not three advanced towers.