Gibble96

Just tried rushing Hail 2/Trickery 3 and the tower performed substantially better. It fell off hard around 48 to 50 on insane, but I screwed up my element acquisition order and grabbed earth-2 before water-3 (a pure water would've carried me through I think). I can see how on lower difficulties the Hail Tower could feel overpowering; as creep HP counts would remain low enough for the spread shot to just wipe out everything. IMHO, for Insane difficulty the Hail Tower needs a damage hike; I would suggest starting with reducing the attacks required from 15 to 14; and then test a version of the revamped Hail Tower that does less per-shot than the current Hail Tower but then deals critical strikes; which would reduce its ability to absolutely decimate lower difficulty mid-waves with the spread shots while still maintaining some kill shots on Insane. This would make the tower more consistent across difficulties. Something like 800/4000 damage with a 12.5% chance for 4x crits would represent a 10% DPS increase, -and when combined with reduced attacks required from 15 to 14- that might be enough to absolve the Hail Tower on Insane Difficulty while actually reducing its ability to blanket bomb early waves in lower difficulties.

I took every tower in the game and built around it in sc2 and it cleared the game in the hardest difficulty (sometimes with -extreme); yes fruit kills were terrible for stuff like Hail but it cleared. If the game philosophy has significantly altered then I'd suggest giving the Hail Tower a few runs yourself before buffing it; I think you'll find what I found, but you should try it for yourself. I think critical strikes would assist this tower regardless; even if you lowered this tower's damage to erase the DPS increased. The biggest issue in my experience was how the special ability of the Hail Tower was essentially erased by certain creep abilities. Staggered damage would make it possible to cut holes into the enemy line of healing creeps or kill heavily wounded regen creeps quickly. *And on a side note, as opposed to balancing this tower against the Impulse Tower, shouldn't it be balanced against the old Tidal Tower? Isn't this the same function where it auto-attacks like an arrow tower then hits all creeps in a radius 1 time each? Isn't this the old Tidal Tower but with less AOE component, and a much heavier emphasis on the long-range, single-target damage component?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on a philosophical basis; I would like every damage-classed tower to possess a role late game. Usually a long-range single-target tower would possess utility for pick-offs during icefrog round but the Hail tower's single target damage is pretty atrocious relative to Magic Towers, Refined/Pure Dark/Nature, Celerity, Etc. Ideally Hail Tower would fit into a defense using a level 3 dual-element buff tower and 2x damage amp triples with no slowing support (Fire/dark/nature/water or light/earth/water/nature), but due to its typing it lends itself to at least one slowing support triple. As it stands, Hail Tower best serves as just a cover for water-damage towers through the mid-game; which is rather disappointing; as there are other single-target towers high range towers that can serve a useful purpose during icefrog rounds (such as celerities with quake, magic towers/dark towers with gunpowder, blitz with... anything, really). Splash is usually the centerpiece of any defense, bar something over the top like pre-nerf Blitz/Quark, but singles have traditionally held a place for pick-offs during fruit/icefrog rounds and for eliminating lead creeps to prevent double-pass splash towers from switching targets earlier than intended. And in sc2 days, there were builds that could mainstay singles with some supporting splash to protect against undead/image and would work to great effect. Historically in EleTD, any damage tower could have a defense constructed around its concepts to optimize it, and it could clear the game on Insane Difficulty with no lives lost; even if just barely. Now there was definitely a discrepancy in Fruit Round effectiveness, but wave 60 could be cleared with anything provided it was optimized. If the game balance philosophy has changed such that every defense should be slow + splash by the end; well then I guess I'm a sucker for the old-school balance where a large variety of strategies worked in SP and MP; and where any damage-classed tower could have a defense built around its concepts and serve as the basis for a tower defense.

I've tried multiple support combinations; none of which utilize rushing 2-2-2; also tried multiple positioning combinations and manually targeting to avoid damage waste (something this tower is incredibly prone to). The biggest reason why I've been so uninspired by the tower is just how much better my other towers always perform. I build a standard light-water-nature cover using 2xHail + Tidal + Enchantment tower and the Tidal/Enchant make a larger impact. With a single Well Spring Tower and Trickery Tower this quartet performs pretty well through 30'ish but other defenses can do the same with just 3 triple towers. From that point onward, I've tried to advance the defense with hail as the primary damage tower, but Tidal Towers always, always outstrip the Hail Tower's performance and by a considerable margin. Other level 2 triples will absolutely trash wave 35 with a full support system (I had enchant + polar + roots + muck + well towers ), but it took 2 level 2 Hail towers to struggle to clear what a single level 2 Tidal Tower will absolutely decimate. If anything, Hail Tower should benefit the most from a zero-support system. Maybe that's my issue since I'm surrounding it with splashes and slows and damage boosters and I should just rush Hail Tower level 2 ASAP followed by an immediate level 3 trickery tower. I will give Hail Tower Level 2 rush a shot; maybe I'll revise my opinion after a stock standard level 2 rush > level 3 trickery rush. Ultimately, Hail Tower feels incredibly shallow as a lead-damage tower. If this is by design then I guess it's fine; I would only use it in a serious multi-player game as a cover for a Water-Main strategy; and only if I didn't have access to better light-damage towers. A strong argument could be made that the Hail Tower *shouldn't* be a particularly good damage tower -and I agree with that sentiment-, because as a 1500 range non-splash tower it should definitely not stand among the elite damage dealing towers; but as it stands, it feels pointless. In a 1v1 against WindStrike I wouldn't even consider Hail Towers when there are towers that can clear waves so much faster, for so much less money. It's possible that Tidal/Quake are overpowered; but I've also done far more with far less utilizing other tower combinations such as Gunpowder lead damage dealer + Flame Thrower cover + Dark Tower for clean-up with Muck/Erosion/Forge support. I'd also feel pretty comfortable using similar support set-ups with Flooding/Flame Tower/Steam Tower.

Ok, I'm curious as to what others think about the re-worked hail tower (Every 15 attacks, it fires at all enemies within range.) It is sooooooo cool to watch; but it's also just freaking TERRIBLE. I think it's worst damage tower in the game and by a pretty large margin. This tower basically gets completely screwed over by every single enemy ability type in the game. Undead - It's still more or less a single target dps tower; does not handle undead well (nor should it handle undead) Shield - Close to half the targets are usually invulnerable when the spread shot goes off Regeneration - Completely negates the spread shot after a little time Healing - soft damage spread across the entire creep wave gets healed off pretty quickly once a few guys die Speed - You'd think it'd be good versus speed, and it is decent, but less time within range = less spread shots Temporal - The only creep type this tower seems to excel against. Please don't revert Hail Towers. They're so cool as they are now, but they're incredibly weak. However, due to their range of influence, I think they're difficult to balance. A damage hike is necessary, but I think it needs more than just damage. I feel that the Hail Tower in its current form would either remain too weak or would become completely broken with no room in between. Right now it deals single target damage damage and then a burst of "soft" damage to all enemies, which basically means it's absolutely atrocious versus every single creep ability (Except temporal). If the damage gets hiked to where it deals "great" damage to all enemies then it turns broken; hard broken. So I'd like to suggest giving it critical strikes. 15% chance to deal 4x damage. This represents a 45% DPS increase -which is probably about what the tower needs- but more importantly: the damage during the spread shot becomes staggered. A few targets will receive lethal damage, while others receive the old "soft" damage that gets easily countered. Giving out a handful of deep gashes instead of nothing but paper cuts enables the wielder of the tower to try and cut holes in the enemy creep formation against healing; and to finish off critically injured Regeneration creeps. Based on the tower design, Regeneration and Healing *should* threaten this tower quite a bit, but as it stands Regeneration and Healing absolutely erase the Hail Tower; more so than I would guess was intended. - On a side note: I'd also suggest reducing the attack count from 15 to 14. As it stands, level 1 trickery towers clones will just *barely* make it to the 15th spread shot, but if there is even a slight disruption to the attack stream then the clone will disappear before firing off that spread shot. It would make sense that Trickery Tower and Hail Tower get along after all =X

Now that Tidal Towers cannot drop below 100 splash range; I'm not sure of the reset option is entirely necessary. I find they're most appealing now at maximum stacks and proper support. If ever Tidal needs a Nerf, then perhaps a forced reset (such as with ephemeral) could function as that Nerf.

Trickery towers are clunky and unpredictable. They eat up ALOT of space, and in a game where positioning frequently matters, this can cause problems. It works out pretty well at the moment because trickery typically blends with long range towers that are less picky about their positioning (Just imagine trying to do trickery towers + quake towers >_>). I'd personally like it if Trickery towers simply transformed into their target towers. Rather than clogging up spaces with tower copies, they would just morph themselves into said towers; which makes it much easier to plan for the use of a trickery tower; while also making trickery towers consistent from levels 1 through 3. The new trickery would be fixed at 15 second cool-down, 15 second transformation duration; and then copied towers could not be copied for 60 seconds just like currently. The transformed tower would have substantially modified damage though. Right now -presuming you possess four damage towers to be buffed-, a well/forge tower provides an output boost of 60%/120%/400%. That's four towers with 15%/30%/100% damage boost. If you have four level 2 quake towers boosted by a single level 3 forge tower, then you are gaining the output of an additional 20,000 gold worth of towers for just 3,650. In order to match Trickery to this increase in tower DPS output, you would have to make its copy damage 60%/120%/400% for 15 seconds, because it only copies one at a time. However, this method of damage boost is far more abusable and can be utilized to high effectiveness; and so should probably NOT match the pure DPS boost of a forge/well. Maybe 50%/100%/300% as a starting point? The numbers would probably need a lot of testing, but having trickeries transform instead of clogging the field with copies would be a lot easier to manage, and you could do more strategically with positioning because you know where the copy will appear (where you build the trickery tower, essentially). - And while on the subject of a trickery tower re-work: I think the damage of the tower itself should change. Right now Trickery tower's component elements are both single target damage towers. There is absolutely ZERO reason to build a trickery tower early game b/c light/dark towers simply outclass it. I'd like to suggest making Trickery Tower a Very Slow firing, 900 range, huge splash tower. So 1.5 APS/900 Range/200 (Full) with 400 (Half) splash. And because Trickery Towers would "Lose" their own DPS for transforming, I think it would be nice if trickery itself sported damage-tower numbers or close to it. This would certainly make Trickery towers more interesting, because you probably have to think about what to clone, and when.

I think a nice addition to the tidal tower would be a button to shut down auto-attack for 1 second and reset the stack count to zero. If this does make it to the game, I think an auto-cast option would also be good.

I propose diversifying the damage payload structures between various single-element towers. Currently the towers overlap too much. There are Single-Target towers and Splash towers; 3 for each, and since the WC3 versions, there has always been a "best-in-class" for both the splash and the single. Usually Fire outclasses Earth and Water; while the single target damage towers struggle to find purpose when they're nothing more than glorified arrow towers. Adding minor abilities would also open up the chance to fix early-game balance issues: such as Dark Towers hitting for 260 damage against a wave 1 with 110 hit points (or something like that). Abilities wouldn't be given to single-element towers for the sake of having abilities: it would just be added for those elements desperately in need of something unique to distinguish them from their counterparts. Some ideas that come to mind: Dark Towers - 15% Chance to crit for double damage; when a Dark Tower overkills a target, the overkill damage chains onto the nearest enemy (overkill damage cannot chain again). This would solve a serious issue with Dark Towers wasting so, so much damage during the early waves. Earth Towers - Instead of splashing, their projectiles could splinter into 2 half-damage fragments that strike new targets (Would function exactly like Drow Ranger's Scepter upgrade). This would finally distinguish Earth as its own tower and not just perform as an inferior Fire Tower/Water Tower. Water Towers - Maybe a bouncing effect? Like 6 bounces or so? To clearly distinguish it from Lightning Towers, it would have poor base damage, no damage decay on bounce, and could bounce back to the original target. It would specialize in killing groups of 2-3 but would be absolutely atrocious vs single targets; and just outclassed in splash-centric scenarios. Light Towers - Not sure range advantage is enough by itself; but I got no ideas at the moment. Maybe the sheer range advantage in itself is good enough. Fire/Nature Towers - Probably don't need abilities as they would each serve as a baseline for Splash Towers and Single Towers respectively. I'm not necessarily pushing these specific examples: but I do want to see single-element towers distinguished from one another. Right now we have 3 glorified Arrow Towers; of which, we really only need one to function as a super Arrow Tower. As for splash: Fire just outclasses Water/Earth because it's the highest DPS splash among the 3, and within splash scenarios, range rarely matters once you properly set splash up with supporting snares.