gwho
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Posts posted by gwho
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*notices very easy mode...*
*ignores*
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u compeltely forgot to list the change that haste was nerrefd to 15 times stacking in any patch noteCheck the changelog for 0.80.
oh, pfft, i was searching haste and blitz. never remembered anythign by their ability name.
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I have an attempted fix for the leaver resource bug for the next version. So silly that it's hardcoded and I have to fight it like this.u compeltely forgot to list the change that haste was nerrefd to 15 times stacking in any patch note
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after u choose all the modes, it pans to your area/scv. it's too slow. i'd like to start right away. can we just speed up this panning process?
Or better yet, if you scroll or click the minimap, it cancels the panning process.
Panning is only by default. if you want to start right away, u can do so. if you wnat to enjoy the lil cinematic effect u can do so.
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i've maxed out the entire map with fully upgraded blitzes with 400k to spare going haste.and all that was on VH while you're playing VE.
Haha, this is a lie, if you're talking about version 0.80b. Prove it, post the replay, or better yet, a Wave 61 screenshot.
like v .78 or so before haste nerf. sorry replay is gone. ask other ppl they've accomplished it too. not a big deal.
ur attributing all this due to 625 mineral difference? then the alternative results in even more of a difference. ur pushing under the rug that ur getting a velocity tower.NO. It's the 625 mineral difference, very early in the game, AND you can keep that single tower for longer, AND you can upgrade it later, AND you can support it with one single Well tower later. It all compounds together.*bangs head against the wall*
repeat repeat repeat repeat.
ur an idiot and in capable of comprehending something even when it was repeated very explicitly 3 times. what u say is right, it does work well. my point is that there is an even better alternative. get that thru ur head.
u clearly are incapable of making proper comparisons.
i dont get how u acknowledge the dps analysis, and then out of nowhere with no basis other than "it just does", claim the opposite.i even did a comparison with a tower with the same range. if the celerity is so baller, then the light tower even more.
Just looking at DPS numbers, yea. But there's other factors such as time it takes for the attack to travel from the tower to the enemy and amount of overkill, all of which I've shown in my two replays make filling the map with Velocity Towers nearly equal or better to filling it with Blitz Towers.we're talking about filling the map. that puts us in late game, and most importantly, fruit level. in the fruit levle, every tower is attacking, basically. that means the full dps, which you acknowledged is being utilized. there is no way an equal number of velocities would ever be superior to an equal number of blitz for the fruit level.
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Implemented for next version. The scoreboard takes up a lot less space too!sweeeet like honey in my tomey
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just found a good reason why flooding should be AOE:Also, a name like "flooding" and being single target is quite unfitting.
Yet another seemingly supportive reason to go with the aforementioned idea!
lol it IS supportive! =]
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crashes?
lol i thot it was about how its op "crushes the waves"
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I actually really like this.Different losing animation for each colour, each fitting the settings of that spot.
Seems like a fun; creative cosmetic for Element TD.
the gameplay keeps you coming back for more, the aesthetics wow you and make everything a bit more pleasant. =]
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why does celerity do more than 22/14*500 damage sometimes?
if there is some kind of delay, shouldn't that be removed to actually reflect the numbers dictated by the formula?
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Uh, this is implied. There's no way at all to get to level 50+ with one Haste or Blitz Tower, regardless of having a fully upgraded Forge ot not. Anyone that's tried/seen the strategy just once would know this.uh, you have to say it.
Bedisdes, one could always do the mass grenade tower resell for more waves for even greater compounding effect rather than buying celerity or another triple tower.Yea, I already do this. At some point, you can't keep up making and selling 26+ Grenade Towers. You just switch to one Tower when you are ready.the inferior tower, with same range and lower dps, right?
No. It is never a drawback. At the point when you finally have to start building more towers, it's Wave 53. You're so far ahead in minerals, it's really okay to make a 2nd Velocity Tower. At around Wave 55-56, you start laying down as many basic towers as possible, because it physically takes that long to setup for the upgrades when the interest stops. You bring up your DPS argument again, and then ignore yet again the 4x-8x+ more minerals I'd have to build anything I wanted. I've seen it with my own eyes, me with pre-nerf full 140 Haste/Forge and my opponent on full 140 Celerity on Fruit. It's effective.maybe u just suck?
again, exeuction.
i've maxed out the entire map with fully upgraded blitzes with 400k to spare going haste.
and all that was on VH while you're playing VE. it's not about whos a better player cz that has nothing to do with this discussion. but u completely forgot to compare like with like.
ur attributing all this due to 625 mineral difference? then the alternative results in even more of a difference. ur pushing under the rug that ur getting a velocity tower.
executing is very important. YOU did haste forge while your OPPONENT did celerity. even if the same person executed both and compared, there would still be differences in execution and compounding. the things that are unchanging is the dps values. that dictates when u can get what, regardless of execution.
If you've ever played Celerity, it's actually really easy micro. Compared to attempting wave 20-30 or so with Grenades, and the Haste Towers, I'd actually say it's the easiest of the three. I had to do a ton of micro trick to really prove Haste Towers worked, especially on fast, image, undead, and water levels. The only required micro with Celerity is on Undead levels, when you really want to be maxing DPS on the edges so it's not overwhelming. The DPS otherwise is more than enough to just sit there and do nearly nothing else between rounds 20 or so through Round 50, usually wishing it'd do LESS DPS so you can get more interest.i dont get how u acknowledge the dps analysis, and then out of nowhere with no basis other than "it just does", claim the opposite.
i even did a comparison with a tower with the same range. if the celerity is so baller, then the light tower even more.
And you keep going wishy-washy on the "waaah the micro is so hard" versus "well just rebuild grenade towers".i dont think u read properly. it's not wishy washy. that entire apm requirement was a side note, too, aside from the main point of that paragraph. u claimed something, and i was making a rebuttal. ur the one who said it was easy to micro celerity tower. but light is easier cz there is no micro. so ur saying u can pull off a benefit by paying that apm cost. i'm saying there's an even better option with more apm cost that beats yours. and that option, namely is going 625 light with resell longer, into 2125 light... exactly the thing u claimed that was inferior to your celerity tower. herp.
No. You can't just use one tower for nearly the entire game like you can with Celerity/Velocity. Less minerals used AND longer interest time.re-herp.
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i loved throwing penalties at other players in tetris or tetris attack. glad ur thinking about doing somenthing like this.
ideas:
- spawn a boss. (just requires additional damage, doesnt give element)
- gives a wave an additional ability (boost, mechanical, undead, etc), a wave already with an ability will gain a second, diffrent ability.
- delay an element availability by 1 wave
- paralyze target tower for a number of seconds
- all towers become a different element type (weakness to current wave - maybe OP as stated, but the basic concept of changing damage type.)
- remove 1 life
- compounding rate is halved for a wave.
- freeze a single or few creeps on the other guy's field, can be long duration even unto next wave. tactical timing will be involved =].
to yourself:
- increase your cash on hand by X amount for a wave. increases compounding, but also available to spend. after the duration, it will subtract the awarded amount. can go into the negative, but for compounding it will count as 0 principle, not negative.
to either:
- substitute wave. pick one wave now and have current wave later.
can be used to give yourself more bounty, and an easier time in the future.
or offensively to screw someone else over now, but at the risk of giving him more money and an easier time later.
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NO! why do people think this? (or has it been fixed?)the amount of time charging up can still be quntified. it's not that significant when you consider that hte dps is almost 2.5 times greater at peak state. the peak dps is maintained for quite a while.Haste tower is terribly broken because it gives 800% attack speed when fully charged.. not 320%.
that 2.5 was comapring the max dps of haste to max dps of celerity, not charged haste against uncharged haste. i guess i could have been more explicit.
800% is correct and it's reflected in my calculations.
(doesn't the greater the dps boost of haste, the more that help my argument O.o)
more DPS comparison: this time with purelight.they both have the same range, so there is no apples and orange comparison btween damage dealt: they're exactly the same.
if you get the max upgraded pure light, which costs 11225 and has dps 11,363 dps..
compare it to upgraded celerity which costs 5000 and has 3929 dps...
if we scale it to have it be even cost:...
11225/5000 * 3929 = 8820 max dps
this is the dps of upgraded celerity if it costed the same as maximum pure light. as you can see, the dps/cost is still less. (and severely sucks in comparison). And again, that's a maximum, and costs no micro.
You should not compare with pure towers for 3 reasons:
1. Pure towers are a very high level of upgrade, that is the most expensive in the game. In this game, upgraded towers are always far more efficient than the less-upgraded ones, and linearly comparing the most expensive tower to a less expensive one, is not accurate — you have to take into the account the non-linear gains that increased cost has.
2. This is more important in my opinion than #1: you must have essences, which are extremely limited. One will typically have a maximum of like 6 essences, or sometimes maybe only 2, while a person can fill their ENTIRE AREA with upgraded celerity towers. You make 1 argument using fruit wave, but don't realize that another argument you make essentially ignores fruit wave. AFAIK 2-6 pure towers is nowhere near enough to do well in the fruit wave, and hence need to realize that essence is a huge limiter, and justifies a high cost-efficiency of pure towers.
3. Somewhat related to #1: The more expensive a tower is, the harder it is to smoothly get. Cost sometimes beats cost-efficiency, because it's possible that even if a tower is super-duper cost efficient, it is just completely nonviable to get because of it's prohibitive cost.
Take a look at real-life: We aren't all running the most efficient light bulbs, most efficient power plants, most efficient cars, etc. because they generally cost more... even if that cost will be offset by the better efficiency.
Anyway, all that stuff said, I think celerity and temporal type towers should be very strong towers, and very possibly need a buff (I haven't looked at them recently, and cannot make a concrete statement).
i'm saying eph and cel are weak and need buffs too.
1. misnomer, my fault. i dont mean pure. i just mean single element. i compared celerity with the similar level one. namely the 2125 one. the numbers are correct. i adjusted and scaled to equate the cost. the numbers in the calculations are the appropriate level light tower, not the highest level "pure" one.
(u should read my numbers and calculations a bit better)
2. if u read my post, i'm saying u can simply use the essences u get for free for a few celerity towers.
given the fact that celerity has low dps/cost, why would you even want to get a ton of them? plus, they'd all have differne ranges, and microing efficiency would go down, there are much better towers, much better triple towers. Never meant that you spend all ur money on all pure towers. but getting those with what essences you have, results in higher efficiency for that many towers and that much money. still, celerity is cost-inefficient, especially late game, so you'd want to spam a bunch of other towers.
Plus, the only real direct benefit of celerity is in the early game, being 625 cheaper than the 2125 light tower, and being able to wilfullly leak guys through wiht relatively less apm than mass reselling.
u forget hi range is useless in fruit levels, and most towers are designed so that higher range has lower dps, while lower range has higher dps, as a general rule.
3. yah, so u can mass resell for a bit longer and that would be even more efficient that getting celerity in terms of compounding. also i'm talking about the 2125 light tower, not the pure so already addressed.
buying something less cost-efficient b/c it's cheaper on the absolute scale is right. we're limited by our pockets, but also we want to compound as much as we can. so what you do is find the highest efficient one that is available to you within your price range... but, taking it a step further, you'd also factor in what your eventual plan is and buy something that you'd already want to buy.
ex- going ling-infestor in the midgame, b/c you want ling infestor broodlord composition late game. going ling infestor is "lean" b/c it already fills a part of your eventual goal. celerity sucks late game. you dont want a lot of them. it's not lean. it shouldn't be part of your late game goal. thus it's like going mass roach hydra with missile upgrades, when your late game goal is strong ultras... it's a deviation and slows down your eventual goal by eating up your gas, and not being melee type. going line infestor into ultra works nicely b/c lings benefit from melee upgrades, which also works on your ultras. ling infestor is thus lean in terms of your end goal, and your end goal is a good one. celery is not a good goal, and any benefit is in the early game, which is outdone bya variety of other choices.
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just like playdota.com when you click a certain tower, the info remains locked on that tower, even if you move your mouse on another tower.
quite useful when alt tabbing and stuff.
you also wont have to play "operation" by avoiding other tower icons just to have the info not change.
clicking the same icon undoes this "lock" feature, and restores mous-ing over other icons.
when an icon is clicked, a border appears so you know it's locked and locked on to a certain tower.
while in the locked state, and you click another tower icon, , it locks it onto the new tower.
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Did everyone else type -yes or -y?didn't know -kick existed.
once you do attempt to kick, does it even alert other players that they have to type -yes or -y? a button menu could be more user-friendly, and thus more likely to get a response.
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just found a good reason why flooding should be AOE:
the two double-slow tower element combinations:
NWE + D combo gives you ephemeral. add in dark element, it gives you 2 slow towers, plus flooding.
WFN + L gives you celerity, (sort of similar to ephemeral), 2 slow towers, but this time torrent, which is AOE-tastic.
Also, a name like "flooding" and being single target is quite unfitting.
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Yea, I tried the Celerity/Velocity on Very Easy last night. It's insane. With the logical extension of Well Towers (NW), you can last with just one of each of the towers through wave 50. Haste, even in it's un-nerfed state, could never do that. I'm pretty sure if I optimize my build, I can get 500k minerals even with only 1 Interest upgrade, without losing a life pre-fruit.if you're comparing celerity + well, then you'd have to compare it against haste + forge not against just haste.
Another thing: If you build NW+FL, with the last lvl 50 + 55 upgrades into Light, you could access TWO slow towers. I haven't tried this, and one of those is kinda micro heavy and my wave 55-60 performance is unstable, but there still is flexibility. It could be NW+FD too for one slow tower.i guess that works. going ephemeral, which is sort of like celerity, is also the key to unlocking two slow towers, with the addition of dark.
right now, i'd think that the two slow towers makes up for the crappiness of the celerity and ephemeral towers. epehemeral has been changed so not the case anymore, but i can't get on board with celerity just yet.
The other thing to consider: the clock. The game is now made such that the last person to finish the round controls the clock. I was actually microing my Velocity Tower to NOT hit the leading creep, for more clock. Many times you just sit there and not micro at all, intentionally letting the AI hit the close ones so they go all the way around.very interesting. valid point. good eye.
but this again can be considered relatively lazy. you can sit with a 625 costing light tower, before you upgrade it to the 2125 costing light tower. you can control leaking by using mass grenade towers and selling them. that would give you even more compounding effect than commiting 1500 to a celerity tower. (and of course given the fact that celerity requires tons of micro, it's kind of hard to argue against the clicks that go into mass reselling)
Also, you can always control leaking by being pro and choosing what towers to build when, without having to rely on committing to a single tower with the ability to lower its dps.
it would be much better to have a high dps/cost tower, with less of them. lower efficiency is not a good thing, when you can simply have less of higher-efficiency towers.
Of course these higher efficiency towers come in chunks of money, so what you do is temporarily fill in the dps-shortage by reselling grenades or rays.
Since we're talking about 600 minerals being significant, that would fall in line with the period where grenades are rays aren't obsolete.
gwho, you should probably stop blowing smoke and just try it. Your points on DPS are fine, given a fixed set of minerals, but as I've shown, you can get way way more accumulated Interest with Celerity/Velocity due to its efficiency, and I think it needs a nerf (since Karawasa seems to dislike the notion of obtaining max minerals and getting 140 towers built).Is the point you're getting at that the celerity tower, is simply cheaper 1500 compared to 2125, and thus leaves 625 more minerals to compound, which adds up?
That would be true with any other triple tower.
Bedisdes, one could always do the mass grenade tower resell for more waves for even greater compounding effect rather than buying celerity or another triple tower.
I could also argue that the precursor to the light tower that costs 2125 does partial damage, and is cheaper than celerity. you can fill in the rest of the damage with grenade towers for greater compounding effect.
Until you reach the level where even 140 grenade towers are basically useless, we can always have a "race to the bottom" and argue for lower priced towers are better than higher priced towers.
if you're not playing on random elements, commiting to celerity, which becomes cost-ineffective later on due to the dps/cost analysis done in previous posts, can become a drawback as well... b/c killing a wave needs a certain amount of damage or dps and youre going to have to spend an extra chunk of money later on to make up for the damage. this is harder to quantify, b/c it involves a time difference and compounding.
tl:dr
in terms of compounding:
- mass reselling a bit longer + 625 light tower > celerity tower > 2125 light tower.
in terms of dps/cost:
- any other 2125 single element tower > light tower > celerity
in terms of total damage dealt (factoring in range and shooting time):
- 2125 light > celerity
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Have you tried the new Ephemeral since writing this?hats off to the new ephemeral.
great great changes.
- 3 second buffer reduces the need for constant micro, and instead periodic micro. longer durations of leaving it alone is still not that heavily punished. (not as severe of a punishment)
- a minimum damage (minimum damage)
- comparable average damage relative to other towers and cost
features with similar end-effects would be great on the celerity tower.
question. so how do u stop the 3 second continuous attack? do u have to spam the stop command to interrupt this? is switching targets considered breaking the continuous attack (in this case idk if "continuous" would be an accurate description)?
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I agree that it would be a useful piece of information. But as you hinted at, how to fit it on the scoreboard without making it even bigger?*goes to drawing board with thinking cap on*
ok i looked at it seriously for 2 seconds and immediately came up with a solution.
right now there are 3 columns:
1st - waves, ID names
2nd - lives
3rd - net worth
1) first thing to do is reduce the font of everything. we don't need it that big. star battle uses a much smaller font and it works great. (remember there is around 15 lines for starbattle's menu too.)
2) reduce the spacing between the 1st and 2nd columns. maximum ID length is 13 chars. almost exactly aligned with the colon character in "next wave:" (if you look at 1v1 obs metalopolos, there is only 1 character space between columns. highly efficient, and more than enough visually)
2b) reduce spacing between 2nd and 3rd columns as well.
3) write "net worth" on two lines. (It actually is two words if you want to be grammatically and spelling-ly correct.) Makes 3rd column skinnier.
4) With all this, there will be plenty of room for a 4th column - cash on hand - 8 digits needed at most.
note: icon sizes don't have to change, necessarily. current size would still look fine with reduced font size.
I was going to put up screen shots of current, modified to what it might look like with above changes implemented, as well as the starbattle's menu for comparison... but i dont know how to take screenshots of starcraft without having it just be a black screen when i paste it on paint.
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Might be from a purely DPS point of view, but a Haste tower can do a two-pass (the first of which is mainly used for charging up), Celerity can do a four-pass. Also, once the last creep is around the lower left corner, you can stop microing, because all zones it can shoot are basically at max range. Just some small micro to ensure no creeps slip through.it's not truly 4 passes. passes are measured by by time - how long the tower is attacking. even if a tower attacked 24/7 it still wouldn't be double the # of passes of a tower with 12 range.
the amount of time charging up can still be quntified. it's not that significant when you consider that hte dps is almost 2.5 times greater at peak state. the peak dps is maintained for quite a while.
you'd also have to compare the imperfection of the celerity tower, just as we'd factor in the imperfection of the haste tower. you won't be shooting at max dps with celerity tower for a good portion of the supposed extra two passes. multiplied by the amount of additional time, and considering that it's a fraction the celerity's dps that is already "2.5 times" less than haste, the extra damage of the celerity isn't very significant either.
did we also factor in the overshooting damge by celerity tower? haste has some too, and so does light. but yeah. as you go to the extremes of hi attack speed or to the extreme of hi damage, you tend to have more wasted damage. pure light would have the least wasted damage out of the 3 towers.
Regardless of how it stacks against haste tower, you'd still have to compare the celerity to the pure light. Pure light has the exact same role as celerity due ot the range, but costs no micro, and makes up for the slightly greater mineral cost with requiring less elements, less commitment to element types, less micro, and the possibility of upgrading it really high, whereas celerity's upgraded version has a damage cap, when u get late into the game.
more DPS comparison: this time with purelight.
they both have the same range, so there is no apples and orange comparison btween damage dealt: they're exactly the same.
if you get the max upgraded pure light, which costs 11225 and has dps 11,363 dps..
compare it to upgraded celerity which costs 5000 and has 3929 dps...
if we scale it to have it be even cost:...
11225/5000 * 3929 = 8820 max dps
this is the dps of upgraded celerity if it costed the same as maximum pure light. as you can see, the dps/cost is still less. (and severely sucks in comparison). And again, that's a maximum, and costs no micro.
cleerity would take more space too. of course it costs a pure essence. but you get some pure essence for free. so it's essentially free, if you're getting a few. (did you catch the pun in that one?)
keep in mind the light tower has the lowest dps of all the pure towers. at fruit level, everything will be firing constantly, so having extra range for lowered dps is a loss on the fruit level. every other pure tower is better than pure light, which is better than celery or upgraded celery.
why would i ever commit to the element combinations for celery, just so that i can have a tower that is worse than any light tower, and requires me to micro constantly? it still needs a buff to justify the hi cost in apm. a more sensible thing to do would be to find a way to reduce the apm cost.
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People who used to hate this tower...what do you think?This tower is good enough to hang with the Haste Tower against fruit (0.79).
With the nerf to Haste in 0.80, I'm pretty sure it's the clear best tower in the game.
damage buff finally is nice.
is it still d/14*500 like the website says?
i wouldn't go so far to say it is on par with haste tower.
upgraded celery has 3930 max dps
upgraded haste has 9670 dps, no micro.
celery has max 786 dps
haste has max 1935 dps.
light pure dps level 2: 757 dps no micro, but about 600 more mineral cost. BUT 1 less element so u can get it earlier. light pure > celerity, any day. There is also the indirect benefit of not having to commit to 3 elements, just light.
no way. long range lets you hit longer, but it's not at that max dps, also, you have to compare celerty to a different tower with 22 range. namely light pures.
even with the nerf to haste (where is the nerf to haste that we're speaking of? i see nothing listed since version .75), the stats of celerity and pure light remains the same. pure light > celerity
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asthetics: hail
being imba: haste
Ability: polar
concept: quark
feel: vapor (mini photon cannon within a water vapor dome as if you're using photons to vaporize the water? and it's a nice blue? can it get any more awesome?)
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upgraded polar with upgraded haste and upgraded forge (2nd level)
II WFE FE W LL (any additional) element
(Vapor, Haste & forge, upgraded forge, upgraded haste, upgraded polar)
by having around 5 to 6 upgraded polar towers to constantly keep units at - 30% health, that essentially is worth a freak ton of dps at the fruit level. very cost efficient in terms of dps saved for the amount of 2x2 squares. . you have a total of 140 2x2 squares, rememeber.
upgraded polar with upgraded mildew and upgraded well (2nd level)
I NEW NEW NE LL
(mildew, well, upgraded mildew, upgraded well, double upgraded mildew, upgraded polar)
Uses the same imba-ness and "space-effectiveness" of upgraded polar tower. Uses double upgraded mildew for dps (instead of haste in the above build). upgraded well tower essentially replaces the forge tower.
Down side is that you need to cut one interest.
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I guess I could just sit myself in channel, shouldn't be to hard. What server are we on?I'm from NA; I've been sitting in "Element TD"; so far no one has entered, unless the ideal channel is something different?
ya i thot it might be
eletd
like the website but no dice either.
This is the most popular TD right now. if we had a channel advertised on the loading screen im sure ppl will pile in.
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name should change to reflect this. "vote" implies some kind of collective and uniform mode.
"select your mode" clearly conveys taht the mode is for you.
i would actually suggest putting all the collective items in one box, and individual items in a separate.
both can show at the same time tho.