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Karawasa

If you only had one wish...

79 posts in this topic

It would be great, if you could choose when the wood is used (in random mode)

Then, it wouldn't happen that there are creeps and an elemental at the path at the same time.

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sorry to elaborate/discuss Schmetterschupf's idea in this thread, move post if needed. But it's a good idea, cause when there's a VE rusher at, say, area /, there are these 25 seconds until next wave so i can handle it, but if I'm on random the boss woun't wait those 25 sec, the boss will come immediately just a second after the wave before the boss, like a part of the line, and that makes it impossible to play vs a racer of a lower difficulty. So, how about , just like Schmetterschupf sais, you can manually launch the random boss. That means all the regular buttons of the research center are gone, and replaced by a one and only "?" "Random" button. That would also solve the problems for everybody saying "Where is my lumber?".

However, there is a problem, if it's samerandom, the first guy to summon his boss is unaware of which boss it will be, while the others can watch what another player summons, to prepare a defense before summonning the same one himself.

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For the next version, i have one prayer to the EleTD gods; make kindle tower at least mediocre!

How "mediocre" exactly?

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My biggest wish -- and this is the one thing that I think EleTD absolutely needs to have -- is a hotkey system that is simply based on what new element is added to the tower (as proposed by Sancdar in http://www.eletd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46). For example, to build the tower FLN, the hotkey sequence is

F (fire)

U (amplified fire)

L (lightning)

N (nova),

except of course that you could add the elements in any order (F then L then N, or F then N then L, or L then F then N, etc.).

Would it take time to implement? Of course.

I don't see what's so hard though: You hit the hotkey. A generic dummy upgrading tower takes the place of the initial tower, and stores the information associated with it (what tower it was upgraded from, what tower it will upgrade to). When the upgrade is complete, the upgraded product takes the place of the dummy.

I think this would be intuitive, fast, and overall worth the effort.

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how would that work if I had blacksmith. And want to uppgrade to napalm.

I press N as I usually do since I use hotkeys. But instead it uppgrades to quaker. And it is a nature wave. Imagine that....

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Currently my one wish is to implement team mode, new ronald system and bigger SW bombs. or at least get a response of why they are not yet implemented. :) not that I am the one who decides upon everything - but that those things are my wishes.

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how would that work if I had blacksmith. And want to uppgrade to napalm.

I press N as I usually do since I use hotkeys. But instead it uppgrades to quaker. And it is a nature wave. Imagine that....

Towers would no longer have hotkeys as they are now.

As for Napalm (I'm sure you meant Flamethrower [DEF]), you would press F if you were upgrading from Gunpowder [DE], press E if you were upgrading from Magic [DF], and press D if you were upgrading from Blacksmith [EF].

Possible conflicts with ability hotkeys would of course be dealt with appropriately as well.

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well, it totally makes sense...only reason it would feel really unnatural is because we're already used to the current system. But yes, it does make much more logical sense.

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Both systems work i would say. the current (first letter of tower name) has it's advantages too. If we owuldn't yet have selected, ie if it now was summer of 2007, I'd say they are equally good. now i say keep it as such a change, twisting ppls brains, would require that system to be a lot better, and imo, it's not.

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I don't know how the triggering is done in jass. But I know just about how the trigger would work. And I think that could cause bugs if pressing letters to fast.

Or switching towers and pressing to fast.

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Both systems work i would say. the current (first letter of tower name) has it's advantages too.

I agree that both systems have their advantages.

For example, the problem with the proposed system is that, if you have a Gunpowder sitting around that you want to upgrade to Flamethrower, it may be easier to think of the name of the tower that you want (instead of thinking of what elements are in the tower you have and what elements are in the tower you want, then finding the difference).

The problem with the existing system is that, if you were going to build a Flamethrower, you would have to know that the tower you want has elements DEF, but you might not know the names/hotkeys of DEF or its intermediates (DE, DF, or EF).

I would say that the second case is more common though.

If we owuldn't yet have selected, ie if it now was summer of 2007, I'd say they are equally good. now i say keep it as such a change, twisting ppls brains, would require that system to be a lot better, and imo, it's not.

I don't think the possibility that change would "twist ppls brains" is a reason not to make a change.

First of all, if the new system is better, then we should implement it; if the new system is not better, then we should not implement it.

Secondly, change would only twist the brains of a small minority, most of which are devoted to the game enough to be able to adjust to such a change anyway.

So I think the issue is about whether it will cause performance issues, whether it will take a lot of time, and mostly, whether it makes more sense -- and I think it does.

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Secondly, change would only twist the brains of a small minority, most of which are devoted to the game enough to be able to adjust to such a change anyway.

So I think the issue is about whether it will cause performance issues, whether it will take a lot of time, and mostly, whether it makes more sense -- and I think it does.

You do realize though that 4.0 PB has the name based hotkey system already, and so it would be the entire player base who would have to get used to it (again).

Changing the hotkey system would require considerable time and work as well. There shouldn't be any performance or bug issues though.

I'm not convinced it really is better though. The current system is memory based but also has the versatility to reward element combination knowledge. The proposed system requires this knowledge (and thus lacks the versatility) and is thinking based. To be honest I think going with memory over thinking leaves you with a faster and easier to use hotkey system, especially for the average player.

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I'm not convinced it really is better though. The current system is memory based but also has the versatility to reward element combination knowledge. The proposed system requires this knowledge (and thus lacks the versatility) and is thinking based. To be honest I think going with memory over thinking leaves you with a faster and easier to use hotkey system, especially for the average player.

maybe i'm not understanding correctly. How is the proposed system any LESS memory based? from the way I understand things the new system is still basically memory based, but the memorization is a lot easier, and makes SENSE. Right now I never remember that quaker is F+E+N, i just remember that in order to build quaker towers, i morph them from blacksmith towers (chainmorph, actually =P). If we adopted the F->E->N hotkey system, I would actually remember that quaker is F+E+N and then next time I'm playing and i get those three elements, I'll already know what i can build without having to resort to query like i do now all the time.

We already have U as upgrade, so why not this as well? Or would you rather nix that too, and have upgrading from quaker to earthshaker be hotkey 'E' instead of 'U'.... :roll:

--not that the current system is totally inferior. I think the fact that the name can be associated with the hotkey is a good thing. I just think that associating the elements is a better idea, since the names are pretty much arbitrary anyways.

----also, it may really not be worth the time and effort to change the hotkeys, especially since the system we have now works just fine. but my argument is solely that the new system, to me, seems to make more logical sense.

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maybe i'm not understanding correctly. How is the proposed system any LESS memory based? from the way I understand things the new system is still basically memory based, but the memorization is a lot easier, and makes SENSE. Right now I never remember that quaker is F+E+N, i just remember that in order to build quaker towers, i morph them from blacksmith towers (chainmorph, actually =P). If we adopted the F->E->N hotkey system, I would actually remember that quaker is F+E+N and then next time I'm playing and i get those three elements, I'll already know what i can build without having to resort to query like i do now all the time.

Perhaps I worded it wrong. The proposed system still has a memory component, but there is also a thinking component. The current system lacks this thinking component.

Would it be fair to summarize the above quote with "the proposed system would force me to learn the elements and therefore would make my play better." Compare this to my "the current system rewards you for knowing element combinations but does not require it from you."

The memorization for the proposed system is harder. You have to not only remember the elements, but you have to associate the names (I mean after all you have to know what you're making) with the elements. There is also the thinking component that is not present with the current system.

That is not to say that the proposed system is without merit in my view. I think it would produce better players as it would force everyone to memorize the combinations. I also think it would be easier to use once you have done such memorization. The reason I am against it though is because these boons really only apply to the high level players. The majority of players either don't use hotkeys (said by Cisz) or would, in my opinion, dislike this sytem (casual noobs).

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hmm i guess i kind of see your point now--the tower names do have to be taken into account as they are meaningful.

in either case, not worth the trouble to go changing something that works.

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Would it be fair to summarize the above quote with "the proposed system would force me to learn the elements and therefore would make my play better." Compare this to my "the current system rewards you for knowing element combinations but does not require it from you."

Hehe, i can't the element combinations ;). I simply know: Fire -> Electricity => Nova or Darknes -> Magic => Corrosion or Darkness -> Gunpodwer => Muck. I really don't know most of the combinations.

So I like the system atm, please don't change it :)

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we are so used to memorising what duals upgrade to what triple by the tower names.. i mean most can remember the duals but triples? and considering players (myself, kirby) who spam tower query as we (can't memorise?) the elements for every tower..

on a similar note. how many players can actually one look at the elements (in xsm rnd with at least 4 different elements for example) and tell what towers are available almost immediately (without referring to any form of list)? in xsm rnd the first thing i do after the elementals are summoned is to click tq..

the elemental system would encourage players to really memorise what elements make up every tower to play well.

hotkey by tower name also reduces the chances of misbuilding as every tower has a unique hotkey.. it can be quite easy to mix up if the element hotkey system is used if the player is trying to build different towers all at the same time.

the elemental hotkey system can make more sense as it is directly gameplay. Tower names can be changed but the elements cannot be changed without it being a 'new' map.

actually, i remember this being proposed when 4.0 was proposed in the early betas. Most players now are quite used to the tower name hotkey system that it is a strong factor against changing it now.. the system works without much real problems now..

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Here is my perspective on how people learn the game.

A player new to the game, whenever getting a new element, will look in the quest menu and see what he can build. (He will use the quest menu and not tower query because the quest menu will have descriptions of the towers.)

He will decide which tower he wants. Suppose our example person, for whatever reason, wants Flamethrower [DEF]. He builds a Darkness tower and upgrades it to Amplified Darkness. Then he looks for an upgrade to his Amplified Darkness that says D+E or D+F. He upgrades to DE or DF (whichever he finds first), and from there looks for the upgrade that says D+E+F.

He must remember the element combination because he doesn't know the names of the duals he needs to get to the triple. He must resort to looking at the tooltips for an upgrade that contains the elements he needs. (He could have looked up the name of the intermediate, but the element combination is listed right next to the tower in the tower descriptions list, and so is more convenient for him.)

In short, the thought process that led to the building of the tower was based on the set of elements that were in the tower.

The point of this exercise is that, with the proposed system, even a player unfamiliar with the majority of the towers could take advantage of hotkeys. The guy from the example would have instantly known the hotkey sequence straight from the quest menu.

-----------------------------------------------

I think it is a problem that the majority of players aren't using hotkeys. Hotkeys ought to be easy to learn for the guy that is starting off by building on a tower by tower basis.

I'm not saying it would be faster to use in practice. It would probably be slower because

Effect <--> Name <--> Elements

is one more connection than

Effect <--> Name.

Also, as holepercent noted, upgrading multiple different towers at once would have a high chance of misbuilding.

It would be certainly be hard to adjust to for all the players that are already familiar with the game and are already using the current hotkeys, because these players don't have that same connection between tower and its composition.

Overall, the goal should be to create a strong association between what a tower does, its element composition, and its hotkey sequence, because these are the three properties of a tower that affect gameplay.

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I'm not saying it would be faster to use in practice. It would probably be slower because

Effect <--> Name <--> Elements

is one more connection than

Effect <--> Name.

i think you might be overestimating the impact of this here. though your points are all valid.

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on a similar note. how many players can actually one look at the elements (in xsm rnd with at least 4 different elements for example) and tell what towers are available almost immediately (without referring to any form of list)? in xsm rnd the first thing i do after the elementals are summoned is to click tq..

:mrgreen:

A player new to the game, whenever getting a new element, will look in the quest menu and see what he can build. (He will use the quest menu and not tower query because the quest menu will have descriptions of the towers.)

He will decide which tower he wants. Suppose our example person, for whatever reason, wants Flamethrower [DEF]. He builds a Darkness tower and upgrades it to Amplified Darkness. Then he looks for an upgrade to his Amplified Darkness that says D+E or D+F. He upgrades to DE or DF (whichever he finds first), and from there looks for the upgrade that says D+E+F.

He must remember the element combination because he doesn't know the names of the duals he needs to get to the triple. He must resort to looking at the tooltips for an upgrade that contains the elements he needs. (He could have looked up the name of the intermediate, but the element combination is listed right next to the tower in the tower descriptions list, and so is more convenient for him.)

Actually the quests menu has the same information as the tower query. More importantly though is the logical error. If a player has looked in the quest/query and identified what he needs to build to get to his desired tower, then he already knows the names and has all he needs to know.

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